Pew Polls Muslims
By Thoreau
There’s a new survey out of American Muslims. As expected, we kick Europe’s ass when it comes to assimilating immigrants:
The survey by the Pew Research Center found that 78 percent of U.S. Muslims said the use of suicide bombings against civilian targets to defend Islam is never justified. But 5 percent said it is justified “rarely,” 7 percent said “sometimes,” and 1 percent said “often”; the remaining 9 percent said they did not know or declined to answer.
By comparison, Muslims in France, Spain and Britain were almost twice as likely to say suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified…
Still, I suspect that some will make much of the 22% who didn’t say “never.” Indeed, I’m curious about that 22% as well, but I suspect that a lot of them have more innocent explanations. We’ve all been in those conversations, especially in college, where you entertain all sorts of hypotheticals and “but what ifs?” (Hell, most American hawks still enjoy “But what if…” questions as a way to justify torture.) I want to know how many of those 22% are reasonable, moderate people who simply don’t like answering questions with “never” because “Well, I’d never do it in most cases, but if, hypothetically, a case with enough caveats happened, then yeah, I guess you gotta. Not very likely, but ‘never’ is a strong word.” College students in dorms are fond of such statements, as are internet chatters who enjoy scoring points by finding exceptions to “never” statements.
And that 9% who didn’t answer? I want to know how many of them were people who said “I’m not answering a bullshit question like that. What, you think I’m a terrorist? This is an insult!” Because I’d probably be in that category if I were a Muslim.
More good news:
On balance, they believe that Muslims coming to the United States should adopt American customs, rather than trying to remain distinct. And they are even more inclined than other Americans to say that people who want to get ahead can make it if they work hard; 71 percent of U.S. Muslims agreed with that statement, compared with 64 percent of the general public.
The bad news: While we do a great job of assimilating immigrants, the Muslims heirs to the legacy of America’s original sin are a bit more extreme (but only a bit) than their immigrant coreligionists:
Nine percent of African American Muslims expressed a favorable attitude toward Osama bin Laden’s terrorist organization, while 36 percent held a very unfavorable view. Among foreign-born Muslims, 3 percent had a favorable view of al-Qaeda while 63 percent chose “very unfavorable.”
Jamal, the Princeton professor, said the data seem to indicate that African American Muslims are sympathetic to the goals but not the means of al-Qaeda, because 85 percent said suicide bombing is rarely or never justified. She speculated that they may see al-Qaeda “not just as the force behind terrorist attacks . . . but as resistance to a status quo that is seen to treat them unfairly.”
In other words, we have little to fear from the outside world, but we still have wounds to heal at home.
Finally, Glenn Greenwald has interesting comments on the reaction to this survey. (Sorry to infringe on Mona’s beat.)
Comment by Anticorium —
May 23, 2007 @ 8:42 am
But we must never forget: all of this pales next to the fact that some guy, somewhere, doesn’t like dogs very much.
Comment by Gsnorgathon —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:09 am
I, mercifully, remain unexposed to commentary from the folks who might “make much” of that 22 percent. But when I see surveys like this, I’m always wishing for a comparison. True, it would be difficult to find a comparable question to ask of Christians, but I’m certain a too-large number of them – especially in the US – would also find themselves unable to answer “never.”
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:15 am
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Comment by Jon H —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:16 am
“True, it would be difficult to find a comparable question to ask of Christians, but I’m certain a too-large number of them – especially in the US – would also find themselves unable to answer “never.—
Here’s a question: ‘Do you think it is ever justifiable to bomb an abortion clinic?’
Comment by Jon H —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:17 am
On second thought, Americans might be too cagey for that. Perhaps the question should be if they would help a person who had bombed an abortion clinic.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:19 am
Qur’an 9:5, “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Comment by Jackmormon —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:21 am
Oh, bullshit, ak.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:22 am
?
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:23 am
good thing Mona doesn’t have to worry…
Comment by Eric Martin —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:40 am
Aren’t you gonna quote from the Bible too? You know, the parts about slaves being obedient, just wars against heretics and the like?
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:57 am
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:06 am
Jihadis Post Scenario for the Defeat of the United States
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2373415
Comment by Thoreau —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:12 am
ak, what does any of this have to do with the overwhelming majority of poll respondents who renounce violence?
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:21 am
jpost headline:
25% of Muslim teens: Suicide bombs
1 out of 4 is comforting to you?
Comment by Thoreau —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:23 am
I may need to call down Urkobold to deal with this lesser troll.
Kneel before Zod, ak.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:27 am
Qur’an 13:41 “Do they not see us advancing from all sides into the land (of the disbelievers), reducing its borders (by giving it to believers in war victories).
Comment by Urkobold® —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:35 am
URKOBOLD HAS CONDUCTED A POLL, ASKING CHRISTIANS WHETHER THEY’D WEAR A BOMB FOR JESUS. 33% DID NOT SAY NO.
Comment by Urkobold® —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:40 am
BY THE WAY, WHOOPS, Urkobold THOUGHT THIS WAS HIGHCLEARING. Urkobold DID NOT REALIZE THIS WAS THAT WEBSITE FOR WORTHLESS P.O.S.’S LITTLE GREEN FOOTBALLS. ACH, WHILE Urkobold IS HERE:
GO BACK TO YOUR COLLEGE’S LIBRARY, YOUNG ONE, AND READ EVERY RELIGIOUS TEXT AVAILABLE. KICK YOURSELF WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT THE WORDS OF EVERY RELIGION CAN BE USED TO SHOW HOW TERRIBLE PEOPLE ARE. BE MOST DISAPPOINTED IN YOURSELF FOR BEING THE MOST IGNORANT THAT Urkobold HAS DEALT WITH TODAY.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:41 am
which one of you, Thor, & Mona said yes?
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:44 am
2:106. Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We {Allah} abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?
Comment by Urkobold® —
May 23, 2007 @ 11:56 am
FORGET IT. YOUR IGNORANCE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. CARRY ON.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
50:45. We know of best what they say; and you (O Muhammad) are not a tyrant over them (to force them to Belief). But warn by the Qur’an, him who fears My Threat.
Comment by Eric the .5b —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
If ak continues, do you think we’ll end up with the entire Little Green Footballs Cliff Notes: the Koran in this thread?
It shouldn’t take too much longer.
Comment by Thoreau —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
Eric wins the thread.
(Apologies to Urkobold)
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
109:2. “I worship not that which you worship,
Comment by mediageek —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
Ak, do you actually have a point to make, or are you just going to continue to spam the discussion?
What’s next? Adverts for \/|AGR/\?
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
I disput the percentage offered, but nonetheless do you not find it worrisome that 22 % want to slit your throat or worse?
Comment by Uncle Kvetch —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
I find myself wondering what particular Christian values dictate that a country can cause the deaths of half a million innocent people for no particular reason, and then congratulate itself for its humanitarian foreign policy and its civilized, “enlightened” mores.
Comment by Minion of URKOBOLD —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
oooh! he’s keeping a journal of his day
10:22
Woke up. Hungover. Where the hell am I? Who the hell is that? Kora-Ann? Whatever. Cheap.
11:43
mistyped the time as “109:2″ (assume it’s his 100 yard freestyle time). Dammit.
12:01
shaves tongue
12:04
shaves face
12:08
shaves feet
12:12
shaves back
12:32
gets new razor.
13:41
1 in 4?
Feel better about 4 out of 5. But thanks for your concern.
13:44
wonders… “ak”… what could that stand for… “Yak” where the spittle blocked the “y” key? — nope that’s not it.
13:46
sees something shiny. Takes five to BATE.
13:51
much better. Back to the riddle at hand. Who is “ak”
Shakespeare?
Shakespeare!!!!!
His silver tongue has charmed us all!
[checks Noam Chomsky Blow up doll]
YES!!!!!!! SHAKESPEARE is HIER!!!!!
oh thank you thank you “ak”. Shame no more about your identity!!!!! Let it shine! Cover yourself in a golden shower of truth! Enlighten us! Smear korn syrup on your bosom!!!!
And quote with me, brother! That quote from Porky’s Two (the next day) that you, “ak” (Shakespeare!!!!) know so well!
SO SAYETH THE SHEPHERD! SO SAYETH THE FLOCK!
*passes out
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
now why would Islam do that….good question!
Comment by Urkobold® —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
VIAGRA. GOOD FOR YOU. GOOD FOR ME. AND DOESN’T CAUSE PAINFUL FOUR-HOUR ERECTIONS.
MMM GOOD! (repeat) FEELS GOOD! (repeat) IS GOOD! (repeat) REAL GOOD! (repeat) TASTES GOOD! (repeat) MIGHTY GOOD! (repeat) GOOD FOR YOU! (repeat) GOOD FOR ME! (repeat)
Comment by Minion of URKOBOLD —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
Excellent question.
Hey Shakey Baby (may I call you that, Sir Edward?):
riddle me this – why trade the Kingdom for a Horse? You’d think he would have had horses in his Kingdom….
Ohhh – we’re late now. Dammit. We’re having so much fun here, “ak”, that we’re gonna miss our “technical virgin” group session.
*touches tater tot lightly before brushing it with ketchup and munching away
Comment by Gsnorgathon —
May 23, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Glenn Greenwald finds the comparison I was too lazy to hunt for. It’s even worse than I would have thought.
.
I’m just so eager to hear ak’s reply to this. I’m sure it will be every bit as thoughtful and measured (not to mention intelligible) as its previous posts.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
so sorry not gonna link …what with MoveOn.org etc investigation et al.
Comment by mediageek —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:19 pm
Eh, what?
Comment by mediageek —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
Just to recap, the stats from the poll:
5% said it is justified “rarelyâ€
7% said “sometimesâ€
1% said “oftenâ€
9% said they did not know or declined to answer
How do the above answers mean that 22% want to “slit my throat, or worse”?
And if your 22% figure is true, perhaps you’d care to explain why there haven’t been more suicide bombings conducted by American Muslims?
Comment by mediageek —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
Or throat-slittings, for that matter.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
109:2. “I worship not that which you worship,
Mr Soros ..please answer the congressman’s question!
Comment by Donald Johnson —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
I’m surprised nobody has said anything about feeding trolls. There’s been an invasion of trolls, orcs, and the occasional balrog in the comments sections around here lately and it’s getting to the point where it might not be worth reading them. The comments section, that is. It goes without saying that the trolls aren’t worth reading.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:32 pm
Qur’an 13:41 “Do they not see us advancing from all sides into the land (of the disbelievers), reducing its borders (by giving it to believers in war victories).
Comment by Wild Pegasus —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
That 1% is worrying. Muslims are about 2% of the country, and about 1% think it is often justified to attack civilians to defend Islam. Say half of American Muslims are adults. That leaves us with about 30,000 Americans who think it is often justified to attack civilians to defend Islam. That’s basically 1:10,000.
These numbers might also be short. If I were a Muslim, and I believed it was often justified etc., and someone called me up to poll me, I seriously doubt I would say “yes”. So these numbers are probably short of the actual number.
This isn’t to paint all Muslims with a broad brush, or call for massive surveillance or anything, but just to note that there are more folks among us who think the terrorists are on the right side than we antiwar folks like to contemplate.
- Josh
Comment by Thoreau —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
Fair point, Donald Johnson.
ak, it’s been fun watching Urkobold deal with you, but now it’s time to move on.
In regard to the matter at hand, I want to know something about the 9% who didn’t respond, and I want to know whether the 5% who said rarely are in fact violent people, or instead the sort who get their heads wound around hypotheticals and hence can’t give an answer like “never.”
Comment by Tom Scudder —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
Hoom hoom. The Aardvark notes that the American Muslim answers come out the lowest among Muslim communities surveyed worldwide to the “are you a terrorist? No, really, you can tell me. Whisper it in my ear” questions.
Comment by Tom Scudder —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
Gah. the actual link to the aardvark comment.
Comment by Tom Scudder —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
Weird. Does the commenting software automatically stop comments with empty links? (Anyway, the above link is to an abu aardvark discussion of the polls, pointing out that the % of american muslims who didn’t say “never” was lowest among the communities surveyed worldwide over the years by Pew.)
Comment by mediageek —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Ever the optimist, I was hoping that maybe ak could be goaded into actually stringing a dozen-or-so words together into a coherent sentence.
Silly me.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
al Mahajiroun? Hamas & partner Hezbollah,
the Fatah connection to Bush, or the Jamat al-Pizza boys?
shall we continue naming before you focus?
Comment by VM —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
ak forgets this:
Vi glemte alle de ting: vi gjorde, som vi ikke sku gøre, og alt det vi ikke sku gøre, som vi burde ha gjort!
Og det var ikke for noget og slet ikke for meget, men det var lykken det var: h̴nden p̴ hjertet, dig omkring livet Рhva mere?
That pretty much shoots down what he’s trying to say…
199.2:
Og så hygger de sig med dans og musik
fester og fodbold og matematik
så snakker de om økonomi
og tegner den fremtid vi lever i
That also contradicts the translations he was allegedly using
Comment by Gsnorgathon —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
From the Pew survey quoted by Greenwald:
So. 51% of Americans believe attacks on civilians are justified. Aren’t we a lovely people?
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
109:3. “Nor will you worship that which I worship.
Comment by ak —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
109:4. “And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
109:5. “Nor will you worship that which I worship.
109:6. “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism).”
Comment by Jackmormon —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
Barmy and bannable, imo.
Comment by mediageek —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:35 pm
Agreed.
Seems to me that if you’re the sort who would likely fail a Turing Test, your IP Address needs to be on a list.
Comment by Jim Henley —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
Sigh. I hate banning people. But this alleged person is like someone put a scratch in Karl and Vince P’s comeback LP.
Comment by Jim Henley —
May 23, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
ak: Please hit the road. You are treating the forum with deep disrespect. This is not a place for cutting and pasting your favorite quotes from your favorite book. I have not made this request of a couple of other anti-Muslim bigots who have passed through, because, as hateful as they were, they at least troubled to construct arguments for their positions. You aren’t making even that minimal effort. So I would request that you take it somewhere else. Whatever you were hoping to accomplish here, you’ve surely done so by now.
Comment by Eric Martin —
May 23, 2007 @ 3:38 pm
No Jim, you have to translate it into his language:
We drive you from us,
whoever you may be,
unclean spirits,
all satanic powers,
all infernal invaders,
all wicked legions,
assemblies and sects.
Begone, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of man’s salvation.
(there, that ought to do the trick)
Comment by Bill Woolsey —
May 23, 2007 @ 5:53 pm
Why does anyone care about the “suicide” aspect of this? I find it little comfort if someone believes that a suicide bombing of civilians is wrong, but if the murderer doesn’t intend to die himself, it is OK.
Anyway, to say that suicide bombing of civilians is sometimes (or even often) justified, isn’t the same thing as agreeing to do it yourself.
And, of course, some might thing that the more Hamas suicide bombers in Israel the better, without favoring suicide attacks here in the U.S. Often might not mean in all situations, but every day in certain situations.
Anyway, leaving aside the issue of “suicide” it appears that the majority of Muslims in America either don’t know their scripture, or interprets it in a different way than some of the claims above. And, of course, we know that.
Comment by Thoreau —
May 23, 2007 @ 6:20 pm
Thanks, Jim.
Comment by Mona —
May 23, 2007 @ 8:43 pm
Oh hell, I don’t own the rights to cite his posts! And frankly, had wanted to address your very points and link to him, but have spent most of this week in the ugly capitalist endeavor of working out dels for filthy lucre, known as income. So, I just didn’t have time.
Well done!
Comment by Karen —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:04 pm
It saddens me that this excellent blog generally doesn’t break 50 comments unless some particularly irritating LGF troll shows up. Can’t we sacrifice a goat to Urkobold and put it on YouTube to keep these guys away?
Comment by Thoreau —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:05 pm
Well, the troll might have pushed us to 50, but you got us to the 60 mark, Karen. Keep commenting and we’ll keep blogging!
Comment by Anticorium —
May 23, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
I’d just like to apologise for the remark I made about dogs, earlier. I feel like I set out troll bait, and then someone waked right into it.
(I’ll let you decide whether I deliberately left out an L or an N there.)
All I can think now is that the Heroesblogging threads would have been a lot more interesting if they’d gone with their original plan for who gets the exploding hands power.
Comment by Eric Martin —
May 24, 2007 @ 9:15 am
Just adding a comment to the pile for the love of 70 comment threads…