The Hurting Business, the Continuing Story
Sullivan and Drum on the the destroyed torture videos. Both worth reading, though Kevin pulls up lame at the conclusion:
And just think: there’s an entire political party in this country that still thinks this is OK.
No. There’s an entire political party that thinks this is awesome! It isn’t just willing to countenance barbarity. It makes it an organizing principle. That would be your contemporary Republican Party. Unless Kevin is talking about the Democrats. In that case, he’s exaggerating. As an institution, the Democratic Party opposes torture, just as far as it won’t lose them any votes.
Comment by Iron Lungfish —
December 8, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
As an institution, the Democratic Party opposes torture, just as far as it doesn’t require them to do anything that would actually put a stop to torture.
Comment by abb1 —
December 8, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
You da man, Jim Henley.
Comment by Bruce Baugh —
December 8, 2007 @ 3:20 pm
I’ve taken to saying that the Democratic leadership is divided by people who are disappointed by torture and the like, and those who endorse them at a temperate speed and measured enthusiasm. “Oppose” doesn’t quite seem to cover it.
Comment by the talking dog —
December 8, 2007 @ 3:24 pm
As an institution, the Democratic Party opposes torture, just as far as it won’t lose them any votes.
Even that may be a tad hyperbolic; I still remember Chuck Schumer– easily in a position to raise the stakes at the time– merrily placed his own (Democratic) party’s soul in blind trust to John McCain, who, himself willing to sell his own soul (or at least, lease it) in the hope of getting his (Republican) party’s nomination, backed off and made institutionalized torture the law of the land in 2006. Or I suppose, Iron Lungfish says it better than I, i.e., the Democrats are rhetorically, though not operationally, opposed to institutionalized torture. Oh hell, the Donkey Party heart the national security state too!!!
It’s been around 75 months since our own nation’s Reichstadt fire. By this time after the original, the Sudetenland was annexed and Poland was in sight, and the phony war had started… We seem to be right on schedule ourselves. “Enhanced interrogation techniques” were the rage then… and now… Well, some things just never go out of style, I suppose.
Comment by U. C. Knott —
December 8, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
Mr. Henley, you need to go read the comments under your sympathy for the devil. You have a rapidly growing catastrophe there, and you are ignoring it to your severe deteriment!!
Comment by DFCtomm —
December 8, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
If I understand the issue the Geniva Convention doesn’t specify what is or isn’t torture, and I agree that with the current administration that we need to be specific about what can and can’t be done, but is waterboarding, and, I assume this is the crux of the argument, actually torture.
There are two forms of torture physical and mental. I think everyone has seen the scenes from movies showing a POW having a gun put to his head and the trigger being pulled followed by silence. I think we all agree this is mental torture, but is it torture if the POW knows the gun is empty? No there is only mental torture if there is a fear of death.
Waterboarding is only mental torture if the person has a fear that they will be drowned. Does a high profile target really think he is going to be drowned with a washrag in his mouth? I don’t think so, or at least I wouldn’t it’s a pretty inefficient way to kill someone. I would assume it was an attempt to gather information, so I don’t believe its mental torture. Is it physical torture? getting wet is only physical torture if your a cat.
If it is neither physical or mental torture then it is simply taking advantage of the mechanics of the body to create an enormous sense of discomfort, and a sensation of drowning. I don’t consider it torture. I would find it acceptable to be used on enemy combatants
Comment by Thoreau —
December 8, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
taking advantage of the mechanics of the body to create an enormous sense of discomfort
And the Euphemism of the Day Award goes to DFCtomm. Rudy Giuliani will be along to award the ceremonial toilet plunger, which an NYPD officer will shove up your rectum. You can then demonstrate your talent with euphemisms by explaining that what was done to you wasn’t actually torture.
Seriously. Get the hell out of here. Go to some place like Uzbekistan or North Korea, where people of your mindset are appreciated.
Comment by Arthur —
December 8, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
#7 Why go to Uzbekistan or North Korea when you can go to that Democratic city of Chicago. At least you can get $20 million as the Democrats sweep the years of torture of American citizens
Comment by Arthur —
December 8, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
under the rug
Comment by KCinDC —
December 8, 2007 @ 5:39 pm
DFCtomm, if waterboarding is only “getting wet” and causes no fear of death (because of course interrogators never get carried away and make mistakes), then how on earth could it even theoretically be at all effective in getting a prisoner to do anything? You’re not making any sense.
Comment by Doug —
December 8, 2007 @ 6:26 pm
Way to go Mr. Henley, you showed that straw man who’s boss.
Comment by Thoreau —
December 8, 2007 @ 6:31 pm
To all the liberal commenters who give us shit when we’re harsh on Democrats for not banning torture:
Let the record reflect that conservative commenters hate us too. As far as Cathy Young is concerned, that means we’re doing everything right.
Comment by Tom Scudder —
December 8, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
Holy shit, yeah, the invasion of freeperati is pretty frightening.
Comment by Doug —
December 8, 2007 @ 9:08 pm
Getting crap from both sides could be a sign that you are doing everything right or it could mean that your arguments suck. Most likely it just depends on whose ox is being gored.
Comment by mds —
December 8, 2007 @ 11:55 pm
Unfortunately, I don’t think that he’s being unreasonably hard on the Democrats, who had their chance long ago to push back against the party whose leaders were more “outraged by the outrage” over Abu Ghraib, the party that stampeded to institutionalize torture, the party that brags of wanting to increase Guantanamo, the party whose partisan in this very comment thread is defending a torture tactic used by the Khmer Rouge. So I think it’s a bit harsh to accuse him of making a strawman of the actual Democratic position.
Oh, wait, perhaps you’re claiming it’s a strawman representation of the party whose diehards cheer Presidential candidates who promise to torture more, and who defend waterboarding? Sorry, dude, I think you need to go look up “strawman” first.
Comment by KCinDC —
December 9, 2007 @ 12:28 am
Yeah, Tom, I particularly liked the dozens of comments posted at two-minute intervals saying “You gonna post a retraction/apology?”, “How about now?”, “Now?”, “Where is it?”
No idea what Doug thinks is a straw man. Or perhaps the problem is what Doug thinks a straw man is.
Comment by Brian —
December 9, 2007 @ 9:59 am
I don’t think Henley can construct a moral argument supporting the conclusion that waterboarding is morally wrong, in circumstances when there’s a good chance it to lead to intelligence that saves lives, and other methods are not adequate. There’s a difference between moral thought and moral preening, and Henley is good at the latter.
And it’s wrong to say that all Republicans think that waterboarding is awesome. I’m a Republican, and I merely think it’s super-cool.
Comment by KCinDC —
December 9, 2007 @ 10:41 am
Brian, can you construct a moral argument that raping prisoners is morally wrong in circumstances where there’s a good chance for it to lead to intelligence that saves lives and other methods are not adequate?
Comment by Iman Douchebag —
December 9, 2007 @ 12:56 pm
Um, only 3 terrorists have ever been “tortured” via “waterboarding”.
One was Khalid Shiek Mohammed, mastermind of the September 11 and several other attacks.
One was al Queda’s #3 guy, likewise guilty, captured in early 2002 in the counter-attack after 9/11.
The other led the attack on the USS Cole, killing 17 Americans and ruining a very expensive ship.
Over 3000 Americans killed by the machinations of only these 3– and Democrats defend their “innocence” against those who wish to prevent more such deaths? What a joke…
Comment by CaseyL —
December 9, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
KCinDC, if Brian thinks torture is “super-cool,” chances are that he thinks rape is the greatest thing EVAH. In fact, once someone has decided that torture is A-OK, I can’t think of anything they would draw the line at.
Comment by KCinDC —
December 9, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
CaseyL, that’s not unlikely, but some of these torture supporters are taking the line that waterboarding isn’t torture and so are reluctant to admit to following the logic further.