(ENCOURAGING Update)Oh, Dr. T., Get Out, or We Will Send the UO Deprogrammers After You
By Mona
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My co-blogger, Thoreau, who has made no secret of being a practicing Catholic, is thus by definition a member-supporter of:
“The Great Whore,” an “apostate church,” the “anti-Christ,” and a “false cult system.”
Or so says John McCain’s favorite pastor, (brief ad click-through) John Hagee. (Disclosure: As a lapsed Catholic, I also once promoted the Whore’s pernicious plots.)
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Will the media demand that McCain repudiate his close pal Hagee — whose endorsement he sought and proudly touts — to the extent it has ranted about Louis Farrakhan’s (unsolicited) endorsement of Barack Obama? Well, maybe not, since some think the filth Hagee spews is just, like dude, so nothing.
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Added bonus, the first link goes to Greenwald interviewing the Catholic League’s professional grievance-monger, William Donohue — complete with an AWESOME video of Hagee propounding the Catholic/Whore/anti-Christ bizness, that Thoreau is secretly foisting on us with every word he posts — who like the proverbial stopped clock, is right in this rare instance about the odious bigot, John Hagee.
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Let’s see if we can get this one hung around McCain’s neck, mmm ‘kay?
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UPDATE:
Hagee is, thanks to the blogosphere — becoming a problem McCain is going to have to address. From Greenwald’s post today, titled The McCain/Hagee story picks up steam:
The McCain/Hagee story is growing, though still not as much as it ought to. My new friends from the Catholic League emailed earlier to advise that Bill Donohue was being interviewed for tonight’s program of The Situation Room on CNN. Blogs at The Washington Post and ABC News today covered the growing scandal from the anti-Catholic bigotry perspective, with the latter actually featuring the unbelievably inflammatory You Clip — found by Ann Althouse….[...].As has been noted many times, most recently today by Matt Yglesias, Hagee’s so-called “commitment to Israel” actually means that he wants Israel united so that the Rapture can happen and all Jews, including Israelis, will be slaughtered and sent to hell. And the “spiritual leadership” which McCain heralds consists of calling the Catholic Church the “Mother Whore” and a “cult” and arguing that Hurricane Katrina, which resulted in the devastation of tens of thousands of lives, was God’s punishment against New Orleans because it scheduled a gay pride parade that week.
As they say, read the whole encouraging thing. Hagee — to whom John McCain is tightly yoked by his own choice– is simply deranged, and there is evidence the media is coming to realize that.
Comment by Happy Jack —
February 29, 2008 @ 12:46 am
Michael Corleone, do you renounce Satan?
Comment by Mona —
February 29, 2008 @ 1:04 am
“Yeah, Hagee, and all his fvcking works; now get in the trunk of the car, we’re going for a ride.”
Comment by Thoreau —
February 29, 2008 @ 1:24 am
Will the Deprogrammers delete the awful code that my student is writing?
Comment by Mona —
February 29, 2008 @ 1:37 am
Well, that does depend. Is the student a Whore-of-Babylon, anti-Christ-worshiping papist like you? (If you do not understand why you are these things, please see Rev. Hagee’s video with all the kewl charts. His whore — or more properly, yours — is really, just the best depiction of a whore evah.)
Comment by TGGP —
February 29, 2008 @ 3:23 am
I discuss the issue and my own mild anti-Catholic bigotry here.
Comment by Doc Nebula —
February 29, 2008 @ 5:10 am
Whew. Just posted this over at T-Rex on exactly the same subject. So I’ll cross post over here:
For what little it’s worth (pretty much exactly what you’re paying for it):
Try not to expect too much from this McCain/Hagee thing. As far as conservative/Republican voters are concerned, the rules are now and always have been different for Their Guys and Our Guys. (For one thing, we’re actually allowed to run non-Guys. The entire Republican Party would spontaneously combust if, say, Laura Bush or Elizabeth Dole made a serious bid for a Republican Presidential candidacy.)
Whether we like it or not, the song remains the same — embracing the hate (especially the truly screeching whackadoodle hate, as long as it’s nominally ‘Christian’ in flavor) will never cost a Republican candidate votes from the red side of the ballot sheet.
What this signals to me is that McCain is making headway with his base, which is no surprise at all. He had to bring them back around to him in order to have any kind of shot at the general election.
On February 8, in this post, I stated the following:
Big Money is sending conflicting signals right now, which indicates to me that a final decision has not yet been reached. On the one hand, one of Big Money’s most powerful media voices, Ann Coulter, has come out and stated on Sean Hannity’s FOX program that if John Cain becomes the Republican nominee, she will actively campaign for Hillary Clinton, because Clinton is the more reliably conservative candidate than McCain.
On the other hand, Mitt Romney has announced he’s quitting his campaign… Romney is as big a shill for ‘the innerests’ as Coulter ever will be, and if he’s marching offstage, it’s because someone bigger than him cut the marching orders. Romney himself says that he’s doing this to shore up conservative support for McCain, and, yeah, I can see that. Within my admittedly limited understanding of the power dynamics here, that makes as much sense as anything else.
But… again… Romney is a shill for Big Money, and Big Money hates McCain. HATES him. So Romney stepping down is a pretty strong indicator that Big Money is giving serious thought to swallowing its intense dislike of McCain and getting behind his campaign.
Coulter’s statement of support for Clinton over McCain, though, is an equally strong signal that Big Money is considering supporting someone else in this election. And when you can’t find a Republican candidate you like well enough, where does a worried plutocrat go?
Straight to the nearest viable candidate named Clinton, that’s where.
Right now, right this moment, The Innerests must be in a frenzy of frustrated indecision.
However, HC’s surprisingly lackluster showing in the Dem primaries seems to have coalesced a game plan among The Innerests. Why did the NY Times come out with a lame hit piece on McCain full of unsourced innuendo regarding adultery with lobbyists? Because Big Money wanted to give Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity, Malkin, et al an excuse to rally round McCain’s flag. And they have. And with those endorsements come The Base.
What this means is that Big Money has decided to forgive McCain for his Campaign Finance apostasy. He is no longer ‘the end of the Republican Party as we know it’. He is now their Great White Hope. He’s always had the print media in his pocket; now he has all the money, which includes the electronic media, especially the Right Wing noise machine.
Expect McCain to pick a VP who combines solid big business credentials with some serious hardcore Christian conservative street cred. It won’t be Huck, because Big Money hates Huck nearly as much as they used to hate Big John. (Huck ain’t all that smart, but he seems to be a genuinely compassionate Christian conservative who would actually like to spend tax money helping the poor. Big Money ain’t never gonna stand for that.)
I shouldn’t even venture a guess as to who McCain’s VP pick will be, but I will go this far: Missouri Senator/former Governor Kit Bond is going to be on his short list. If you want to know why, check out this exchange from an interview he gave to CBS News on 2/1/08:
CBSNews.com: The big word of this election season is change. And everybody’s promising some kind of change. What do you think would be the biggest changes we would see from the Republican nominee if he were to win and succeed President Bush?
Sen. Kit Bond: Well, I think you’ve got to define change as what you mean. And I think that we would cut down on wasteful spending, illegal immigration. We need to avoid higher taxes. We don’t need to have activist judges. So I think what the change we would see from a Republican would be lower taxes, less government spending, more private sector solutions for health care and energy challenges. So that would be the change we’d bring.
All the red meat is right there; if you dig deep enough into ‘private sector solutions for health care’, you’ll even find a lot of potential for keeping the gayz down where they belong (private insurers and health care providers can, of course, extend or refuse benefits and/or treatment to anyone they want, for any reason they want… guess what that means, boys and girls? Can you say ‘fagbashing’? Sure, I knew you could)…
Another bellwether I was looking for back in my 2/8 entry:
If, on the other hand, it’s McCain the Maverick (running with someone like Huckabee or Paul as his VP) against Obama, well… things could get very interesting indeed. Big Money won’t want either of those tickets in the White House. That, I suspect, is when we’ll see Michael Bloomberg come out of the shadows with a whole lot of cash in his pockets.
And, of course, Bloomberg has just announced he’s not going to seek the Presidency after all… meaning, again, Big Money has made a decision, and McCain is their dog in this fight.
And, going back to this whole Hagee endorsement thing… this is going to be a big win for McCain with little or no downside. The rabid right wing base will love Hagee; the more ‘moderate’ Republicans and so called independents will just shrug when the left points at him angrily and calls McCain a hypocrite. Hagee will have plenty of cover from the electronic media in Big Money’s pocket; calls for McCain to denounce him will be labeled hysterical liberal attacks on Christianity and dismissed by McCain’s supporters on that basis.
And Hagee is going to bring in a LOT of cash. Just as millions of small donors have proven to be an unprecedented cash machine for Democrats (especially Obama) this year, so too will the exact same principle work for McCain, once Hagee gets those wheels a’rollin’. Televangelists have always known how to put together big bucks; you get a few dollars from Cletus here, and few more from Billy Bob over there, and pretty soon, you’re talking about real money.
In the end, I do not believe McCain will win the general election, provided Obama is the Democratic candidate. McCain will be able to stir the base up against Obama with all this ’stealth Muslim’ and coded racist crap the Repubs are already rolling out, but none of that is going to take any votes away from the blue column and put them in the red. And while I am sure the Rove vote stealing shadow apparatus is still out there and still very healthy, at its most effective it was only good for swinging maybe 3% of the vote — Rove relied on dividing the electorate right down the middle and then swiping a few percentage points to ‘win’ elections, and this election shouldn’t be even remotely that close.
On the other hand, if Senator Clinton gets the nod, the Dems will lose votes to the Republicans (that’s my gut feeling; vicious, venomous Hilary hatred is a factor across the political spectrum; there are many independent, moderate, and even Democratic voters who will vote for ANYone running against her) and McCain could make it close enough for the Rove machine to swing his way. And if the media pays enough attention to Ralph Nader this year (and they will, as Big Money owns the media, and a ’strong’ Ralph showing can only help McCain), well… it’s the only way I can see the Repubs keeping the White House in ‘09.
You know what I’d like to see from whoever gets the Dem nod? I’d like to see them reach out to Ralph and offer him a prominent cabinet post, or maybe even the VP slot. (That last will NEVER happen, but jesus, I’d vote for Obama or even Clinton with a much bigger smile on my face if Ralph was the other half of their ticket, than otherwise.)
Of course, Ralph, being the kind of person he is, would most likely turn it down. But, still, it would be nice to see someone make him an offer…
Comment by Dave W. —
February 29, 2008 @ 7:32 am
Catholicism rules. More ppl should be that, like me & T.
Comment by Glaivester —
February 29, 2008 @ 7:50 am
I am an evangelical and I actually do consider Catholicism to be an apostate religion, although a person may belong to the Catholic Church and be a Christian (it depends on how much of the doctrines of Catholicism that the person believes in – essentially, do you believe that Jesus died to pay the penalty for your sins, as opposed to believing that his death only paid for Original Sin or somehow enables you to work to pay off your own sins).
Still, I try to keep the problems I have with Catholicism (the primary one being that it is based to some extent on working your way to heaven) as theological disagreements rather than getting all insulting.
Explaining “I think you are wrong because” is far more productive than “you evil Papist!”
Comment by mds —
February 29, 2008 @ 10:05 am
Nebula, M.D., I agree with you that this helps McCain with much of the base, but given just how deranged Hagee’s beliefs are, it might help with a few swing voters, or with those liberals who still inexplicably admire McCain. Also, conservative Catholics have been making common cause with the Republican Religious Right lately, and it might be a bit of a wedge to have Bill Donohue directing his outrage of the week at McCain. I suspect that “Whore of Babylon,” “cult,” and “anti-Christ” are more than just kinda “insulting” or “unproductive” to devout Catholics.
Also, I think it’s useful to force some further self-reflection on those members of the Jewish community who pander to Hagee, when he advocates provoking a massive attack on Israel in order to force God’s hand with getting the End Times rolling. Sure, he donates money to Israeli causes. Sure, he’s a militant Israel hawk. But he wants to maximize threats to Israel’s security, in order to hasten that glorious day when most of the Jews are exterminated, and the remnant converted to Christianity. I for one would like to thank Mr. Hagee for his support.
So I think it could be useful in a few cases to point out how loathsome these beliefs are, and how widespread they are amongst the Republican base. The mere fact that so many are rushing to point out how this is “no big deal” can itself be a teaching moment.
Comment by joe —
February 29, 2008 @ 11:44 am
Disclosure: As a lapsed Catholic, I also once promoted the Whore’s pernicious plots.
Wow. That is so hawt.
I’ll be in my bunk.
Comment by Derek Copold —
February 29, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
The more I think about this, the more I agree this is worse than Obama’s Farrakhan problem–which is still not good IMO.
McCain should be grilled about Hagee’s strange eschatology (which is FAR more worrying than his anti-Catholicism). One good question for a debate is “Do you think we need to go to war with Iran to bring about the second coming, as your friend Hagee suggests?
Comment by joe —
February 29, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Did anyone notice that Obama just shut up when Timmeh started in on the Farrakan bit? He mentioned a couple of bad things about the Reverend, and obviously expected to be interrupted with some emphatic denials, but Obama just stared at him. Russert flushed and stammered a little and starting talking fast…it was a really classy strategy by Obama. It put Russert on the defensive, having to come up with some way to produce a meaningful question out of all the poo he was flinging.
Comment by Uncle Kvetch —
February 29, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
Will the media demand that McCain repudiate his close pal Hagee — whose endorsement he sought and proudly touts — to the extent it has ranted about Louis Farrakhan’s (unsolicited) endorsement of Barack Obama?
No. This has been another et cetera.
Bill Donohoue is an odious twerp. I’d love to see him and Hagee get into a highly mediatized knock down drag ‘em out.
Trackback by Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator —
February 29, 2008 @ 4:47 pm
McCain, Obama Trade Barbs, in Possible Preview…
Those watching the 2008 electoral process could be forgiven for thinking the general election for pr…
Comment by Fr. Howee —
February 29, 2008 @ 6:17 pm
How many people have even heard of Hagee (?) as opposed to Louie Farrakhan?
Comment by Nell —
February 29, 2008 @ 7:11 pm
Fr. Howee, if you’re trying to paint Hagee as some insignificant, marginal figure, bear in mind that AIPAC had him as a featured speaker at their annual meeting last year.
There was grumbling by some in attendance, but not nearly loud and organizaed enough. Jewish American organizations are playing with fire when they empower and legitimize Hagee, Pat Robertson, and other Christian Zionists.
And Farrakhan, as M.J. Rosenberg points out, is as well known as he is because of sustained shrieking from the very people who invited Hagee to be a headliner at their annual convention.
Comment by Mona —
February 29, 2008 @ 7:14 pm
What Nell said.
Comment by Nell —
February 29, 2008 @ 7:17 pm
Hagee’s impact is much more visible in communities with fundamentalist Christian congregations. Three such entities locally ran programs in the last year promoting war on Iran with speakers from Hagee’s organization (I won’t call it a church).
Given that Pat Robertson and Tim LaHaye are also CZ’s with pots of money and resources to mobilize fundamentalists, and whose theology and politics are just as pernicious as Hagee’s, let’s just say that I’m one hell of a lot more worried about the impact of their organizations than that of the Nation of Islam.
Comment by TGGP —
February 29, 2008 @ 8:02 pm
Doc Nebula, have you been drinking paint? What the hell gave you the idea that there might even be a possibility of Paul being McCain’s VP?
Comment by KCinDC —
February 29, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
The same thing that made him think a Democrat appointing Ralph Nader to the cabinet was possible.
Comment by Derek Copold —
March 1, 2008 @ 10:42 am
The worst that can be said about the Obama/Farrakhan thing is that Farrakhan will get some indirect credibility via Jeremiah Wright–which is why I would like to see Obama give a sort of “sistah souljah” speech on the issue before the convention. Even if he doesn’t, it’s still a minor matter.
With Hagee, you have someone who has taken a strong hand in our foreign policy, and he’s done so based on a wierd interpretation of the Bible that only a small minority of Christians recognize as valid. It’s something that could very well get us into a major war with Iran.
It’s that aspect that has me far more worried than the awful things he says about the Catholic Church–apologies to Thoreau.
Comment by Doc Nebula —
March 1, 2008 @ 10:55 am
Paint: it’s what’s for dinner.
I live in my own world, but it’s okay. They know me here.
Reiterating my important points more briefly: McCain is all about getting the Republican base back right now. Hagee will do that. Potential McCain voters outside the far right whackjob set will only become a problem if big media makes a thing about Hagee. Big media will not. (Liberal and libertarian blogs, alas, are not big media.)
Once again, everyone is playing gotcha (Glenn Greenwald is reigning world champeen of this game), pointing fingers and saying “Oh, you said THIS about a liberal, and then a conservative does THIS, oh how can you be such hypocrites?” And, as always, the right will just ignore it.
They do not operate under the same rules as the rest of the world… by which I mean, sane people.
Hagee is not going to be a problem for McCain. In fact, he is going to be a huge plus.
Now I am done, and thank you, as always, for your civility towards me.
Comment by Derek Copold —
March 1, 2008 @ 11:16 am
McCain is all about getting the Republican base back right now. Hagee will do that.
No, Hagee alone won’t do that. He might be able to deliver his church and his following beyond that, but McCain has stepped on way too many toes over the past decade. At best, he’ll get the hardcore base to go out and vote, but they won’t be campaigning for him. And when they vote, it’ll be more a matter of voting against the Democrat than for McCain.
If Obama chooses someone like James Webb as a running mate, than McCain will probably be sunk, because a lot of Republicans are looking for a good excuse to vote against their party.
Comment by Timothy —
March 3, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
As I live right down the block from that ignorant bigot’s church, I can say delivering all of those fucktards to McCain would be a big boost for him in Texas. And Hagee has a lot of fucktards behind him, although honestly I am surprised they are not backing the ignorant hick preacher from Arkansas.
Comment by Derek Copold —
March 3, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
McCain was going to win Texas with or without Hagee. Texas is the red version of California or New York.