In which I get super-tough on terror
By Thoreau
Joe Lieberman wants you to lose your citizenship if you are suspected of being a terrorist. Me, I want to go much, much farther than that. Here’s how it would work:
If there is sufficient evidence suggesting that you may be involved in terrorism (or, for that matter, any other act of violence against innocent people!) the police can hold you in jail 24/7 while the matter is investigated further. During this time, 12 ordinary citizens would be selected–not liberal trial lawyers, not government bureaucrats, not namby-pamby rehabilitation types from the “correctional” system, just good, ordinary citizens–and we’d rely on them to use their good old common sense to examine the evidence. You would only be allowed to leave the jail to go and participate in this process, but you’d have to sit in your seat and not act out of order and only speak at appropriate times in the procedure. Or, if you don’t want to speak for yourself, a lawyer can speak for you, but realize that lawyers are bound by all sorts of rules of conduct. Don’t expect them to break any ethical rules to get you off, no sirree! If, during this process, you or your lawyer (who can only go as far as ethical rules allow, mind you) cannot persuade those 12 honest God-fearing folks that there is reasonable doubt about the allegations, you get sent to prison for a very, very long time.
Yeah, I’m tough like that. We don’t need no steenkin’ constitution with all those liberal trial lawyer and ACLU types. We can just have 12 honest, ordinary Americans look at the evidence, and if they don’t find any reasonable doubt, you’re in prison. That’s way harsher than anything that latte-sipping elitists like Jefferson and Madison would have come up with.
What?
Comment by LizardBreath —
May 4, 2010 @ 3:37 pm
Man, what kind of fascist are you, with a proposal like that?
Comment by J sub D —
May 4, 2010 @ 3:49 pm
Nice plan you dreamy eyed liberal. It makes no sense to leave the determination of guilt to 12 untrained citizens when we have unbiased professionals (cops and prosecutors) available to make expert judgements about a person’s guilt or innocence.
You wouldn’t let twelve ordinary citizens attempt to determine if you needed heart surgery, would you?
Leaving it to the expertsis what sensible patriotic citizens do.
Comment by Jesus B Ochoa —
May 4, 2010 @ 4:07 pm
ordinary citizens are the deadliest species roaming the planet.
Comment by Mithras —
May 4, 2010 @ 4:17 pm
I agree that having ordinary people decide these matters is ridiculous. As a great man once said:
Comment by Evan —
May 4, 2010 @ 4:48 pm
Lieberman’s bill would amend current law that revokes the citizenship of any American who joins a foreign military. The law exempts those who fight for Israel.
Comment by Frank —
May 4, 2010 @ 5:53 pm
I was visiting merely to say “Bravo,” but I must ask, if police and prosecutors are such experts, why are so many persons being cleared of capital crimes via DNA evidence?
Police and prosecutors by nature of their jobs–not because they are evil persons–are interested in clearing cases.
They are trained in building cases, not in determining truth.
Not the same thing.
Comment by matthew h —
May 4, 2010 @ 9:49 pm
All sounds like an off-the-cuff jury-rigged idea.
Comment by Kevin Carson —
May 4, 2010 @ 9:52 pm
We should strip citizenship from anyone who’s suspected of being a smarmy, hand-wringing piece of shit. Every time I see that sanctimonious moral scold I want to curb-stomp him, but I doubt his mouth would look any different afterward than before.
Comment by ajay —
May 5, 2010 @ 6:05 am
Lieberman’s bill would amend current law that revokes the citizenship of any American who joins a foreign military.
That’s really current law? Has that changed since the days of the Lafayette Escadre and the Eagle Squadrons?
Comment by mds —
May 5, 2010 @ 7:59 am
Fixed that for you. It makes me wonder, though: will Joe make sure to throw in an exemption for his fellow-traveler Peter “IRA” King? Because it would be awkward for King to lose his Congressional seat due to not being a US citizen anymore. Then again, Israel could naturalize him, and that apparently counts double.
Yeah, we’ve added an exemption for those fighting for a nation that has stolen our nuclear secrets, sunk one of our naval vessels, peddled our military tech to Russia, and pursued policies that recklessly endanger American troops.
Comment by Bunker Hill —
May 5, 2010 @ 9:42 am
“What?”
Tongue firmly planted in your cheek I see.
Very funny. We could let Sarah choose those twelve real Americans.
The movie would be great!
“Twelve Real Americans”
Comment by wj —
May 5, 2010 @ 9:45 am
Frank, How can you use DNA evidence to argue against this??? Everybody knows that DNA is a fraud developed by liberals to support their belief in evolution. No God-fearing real American should be taken in by such nonsense.
Sheesh! You’d think people would know better than to let mere facts get in the way of
opinionbelief.Comment by ack3000 —
May 5, 2010 @ 9:46 am
Nice idea, but it seems overly complex. All we need is the president or one of his people to give the word, and then assassinate them. So simple and effective.
Comment by ajay —
May 5, 2010 @ 9:53 am
Yeah, we’ve added an exemption for those fighting for a nation that has stolen our nuclear secrets, sunk one of our naval vessels, peddled our military tech to Russia, and pursued policies that recklessly endanger American troops.
Another piece of evidence that the US has two sorts of ally: Type I allies, who give the US stuff (blood, treasure, intelligence, advanced military technology, diplomatic support) and Type II allies, to whom the US gives stuff (blood, treasure, intelligence, advanced military technology, diplomatic support). Type I would be, say, the UK and Canada. Type II would be Israel and Georgia.
Speaking as a Type I, I would very much like to know how one moves over to Type II.
Pingback by Dealing with Terrorism: A Novel Suggestion « From Pine View Farm —
May 5, 2010 @ 10:34 am
[...] Thoreau has a novel suggestion: If there is sufficient evidence suggesting that you may be involved in terrorism (or, for that matte… [...]
Comment by Nick T —
May 5, 2010 @ 10:36 am
I guess people should be allowed lawyers, but it can’t be one of those “fancy” lawyers. You don’t have a right to “fancy” “smooth-talking” lawyers.
Comment by mds —
May 5, 2010 @ 11:12 am
Pick better enemies.
Comment by StickyStalin —
May 5, 2010 @ 4:39 pm
“God-fearing”? Because I don’t fear mythical beings I’m excused from taking part, right? If only I could get out of jury duty by the same reasoning.
Comment by TGGP —
May 5, 2010 @ 10:26 pm
What about bail?
Comment by Joe Strummer —
May 6, 2010 @ 8:10 am
I don’t understand this proposal. Non-citizens in the U.S. have the Constitutional rights explained in a Miranda reading. For instance, ICE almost always reads Miranda warnings before questioning non-citizens in custody about potential criminal activity.
Comment by mds —
May 6, 2010 @ 8:45 am
At least in part, to get around Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. Holy Joe wants to throw this guy in a cage without a trial and torture him forever**, and one of the legal roadblocks to pulling another Jose Padilla on a citizen is Hamdi.
**In Joe’s branch of Orthodox Judaism, this is known as “fulfilling a mitzvah.”
Comment by Avattoir —
May 6, 2010 @ 9:55 am
tggp asks: “What about bail?”
I thought unq’s offal WAS about bail. Okay, plus habeas, and maybe evidence, sentencing, the rest of that DP crap.
But we’re not compelled to resort to the Cheney 1% intuition principle, and should not go there. Rather, it should be, like, science.
Ajay’s bloody metaphors suggest this: take some dna, a blood sample, a hair sample — better yet, all 3 — and if necessary (or even merely desirable) at the same time (I didn’t say “ask”, or “pluck”, did I?). Throw the mess under a microscope, the better to look at microbial indicators and stuff, and see if any part of it is wiggling about at all subterfugally; say, if some part of it seems to be about to launch an apparently hopeless attack on another part of it (white blood cells, red blood cells, blue blood cells … doesn’t matter: this is not the place for idealogy). If any of that sort of thing is gleaned, you’ve got your rebuttable presumption of “he’s up to something” and it’s off to Gutmo with him.
Comment by Barry —
May 6, 2010 @ 10:49 am
ajay: “Speaking as a Type I, I would very much like to know how one moves over to Type II.”
Found a large, successful heresy to Christianity, which persuades people that your country is God’s Country. It helps if supporing your country serves the American Empire, and you will be expected to engage in regular slaughter and ethnic cleansing.
Comment by David —
May 6, 2010 @ 1:41 pm
I guess people should be allowed lawyers, but it can’t be one of those “fancy” lawyers. You don’t have a right to “fancy” “smooth-talking” lawyers.
If Matlock has taught us anything, it’s that a simple country lawyer with a charming drawl and seersucker suit is the most effective.
Comment by ajay —
May 7, 2010 @ 6:12 am
It helps if supporting your country serves the American Empire, and you will be expected to engage in regular slaughter and ethnic cleansing.
Yeah, we’ve done that. Still doesn’t seem to be working though. Should we up the slaughter or something? Thing is, the only conveniently-located victims are the Irish, and apparently even if they blow the limbs off four-year-old children in shopping malls they don’t count as terrorists.
Comment by mds —
May 7, 2010 @ 7:48 am
(In what follows I am inferring that you’re in the UK, OK, AJ?) Do I have to bring up Peter King again? To him, even the appearance of “providing material support to terrorists” is grounds for Guantanamo, yet he provided material support to the IRA. Ergo and ipso facto, there have never been any Irish terrorists. A similar calculus applies to our subservience to political parties that had their roots in the King David Hotel bombing.
And again, pick better enemies. Georgia is holding the thin red-white-and-blue line as the questionably-labeled first Christian nation against the perfidy of the
SovietRussian bear. And Israel is the only democracy in that part of the world, if one ignores Lebanon, Turkey, and the Occupied Territories. Regardless, they are holding the thin red-white-and-blue line as God’s Chosen Nation against the perfidy of the subhuman Islamistand Christian(whoops) filth swarming the West Bank and Gaza, not to mention against Hitler’s atomic-powered clone in Iran.So, you know, the Irish, the Scots, and if Cameron has his way, pensioners and the homeless, just don’t have sufficient excitement to kick you over into Type II. Heck, I’d actually only classify Georgia as Type 1.5, since there aren’t sitting members of Congress who concretely put Georgia’s interests ahead of our own.
Comment by ajay —
May 7, 2010 @ 10:08 am
I reckon we could probably get some sort of war going against Iceland, if that would be any good to you. Call it a first strike against financial terrorism. Or Islamovulcanism.
Plus, they don’t really have any army to speak of, which is the way we like our invadees.
Comment by Rocketman —
May 7, 2010 @ 10:09 am
Typical liberal BS. Why should Israel be the sole exception? What about individuals that hold dual citizenship and want to fight for their other country. You could drive a semi-truck through the potential problems with this bill.
Comment by mds —
May 7, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
Well, they’re governed by socialists right now, so this might actually do the trick. The Tories would be greeted as liberators who would bring back those halcyon days immediately before the crash. And based on the Times Square charges, hákarl would meet the current definition of WMD. Your Type II certificate is in the post.
Son, I feel duty-bound to inform you that Joe Lieberman, the man who entered the Senate by running to the right of Lowell Weicker, doesn’t even qualify as a classical liberal.
Comment by Kief —
May 8, 2010 @ 4:04 am
In all seriousness, I don’t understand how people who loudly declare themselves to be the “Real”, most patriotic Americans, can also loudly tout their hatred of the principles the country was founded on.
Lieberman and the Fox News staff should move to China. They’d find the way things are run there much more to their liking.
Comment by ajay —
May 8, 2010 @ 2:35 pm
29: hurrah! We march on Reykjavik! And if we spin it right we can sell it as part of the War on Glaciers so ably begun by the fossil fuel industries.